On August 27th and September 3rd, I wrote two articles chronicling the efforts of the Freedom From Religion Foundation to end prayer at High School Football Games in DeSoto County, Mississippi.
Their actions in Northwest Mississippi were their standard modus operandi. They have sued 50 American high schools, in their attempt to ban prayer from public events.
Now, this bunch of bitter individuals from Wisconsin are once again here in Dixie, making life miserable for average Americans.
Fox News reports:
The mayor of Whiteville, Tenn. said his community is under attack from a national atheist organization that is threatening to sue unless they remove a cross atop the town’s water tower.
“They are terrorists as far as I’m concerned,” said Mayor James Bellar about the Freedom From Religion Foundation. “They are alleging that some Whiteville resident feels very, very intimidated by this cross.”
The mayor told Fox News Radio that the cross was erected on the town’s water tower about eight years ago by a private group of citizens. They collected private donations to cover the costs.
It’s just a cross on the water tower,” he said. “All we’re doing is exercising our right to practice our beliefs down here but this organization is now going to stymie that. We’re not out here knocking on doors trying to convert people.”
But the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation said the cross is a violation of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. They’ve given the mayor until the end of October to remove the cross. If he refuses, they have threatened to sue.
“The law is very clear on this,” Freedom From Religion Foundation co-president Dan Barker told Fox News Radio. “A secular city may not promote or hinder religion. We don’t have a problem with believers putting up crosses wherever they want, but this is a cross put up by the city on the city water tower.”
Barker said they’ve been sending letters to the city since last year demanding that the cross be taken down, acting on behalf of an unnamed resident who complained.
“It offends many residents,” Barker said of the cross. “Many of them think the cross symbol is an offensive symbol – that it’s an insult to humanity.”
But Mayor Bellar said he doesn’t believe that’s true.
“As a matter of fact, I don’t even think it’s a Whiteville resident,” he said. “We don’t have people of that belief here and if we do they’re not going to raise that kind of ruckus for the rest of the town.”
Mayor Bellar said he’s inclined to remove the cross rather than face a costly lawsuit.
However, the town council voted to consult with the Alliance Defense Fund about their legal options.
“This is their cause in life – to ride up and down the highway and find small towns that maybe have a religious symbol somewhere on public property,” he said. “I have to admit it – checking their website, they’re batting 100 percent on this stuff.”
As I remarked, when I wrote about these bitter individuals before, if you are an average American like me, you’re probably asking yourself, gentle reader:
Who are these idiots?
Well, according to David Horowitz’s discoverthenetworks.org:
Founded in 1978, the nonprofit, tax-exempt Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) consists of more than 13,000 members and calls itself “the largest association of freethinkers (atheists and agnostics) in the United States.” Its mission is “to promote free thought and to keep state and church separate.”
According to FFRF, religion invariably has been a negative force in human societies. “The history of Western civilization shows us that most social and moral progress has been brought about by persons free from religion,” the organization says. “… In modern times, the first to speak out for prison reform, for humane treatment of the mentally ill, for abolition of capital punishment, for women’s right to vote, for death with dignity for the terminally ill, and for the right to choose contraception, sterilization and abortion have been freethinkers [i.e., atheists and agnostics], just as they were the first to call for an end to slavery.”
Upon perusing their website, you’ll read the following:
The Foundation recognizes that the United States was first among nations to adopt a secular Constitution. The founders who wrote the U.S. Constitution wanted citizens to be free to support the church of their choice, or no religion at all. Our Constitution was very purposefully written as a godless document, whose only references to religion are exclusionary.
It is vital to buttress the Jeffersonian “wall of separation between church and state” which has served our nation so well.
Funny. Jefferson was a faithful attendant of Sunday Church that was held at the Capitol Building. He once explained to a friend while they were walking to church together:
No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example.
He also proclaimed
I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens.
Atheists always seem to fall back on Revisionist History to buttress their ideology.
Despite the mayor’s and his town’s fervent desire to stand up to the FFRF, Bellar has announced that the cross will be taken down and moved, as the town cannot afford to fight the organization in the courts. While the townsfolk are still rightfully upset, the mayor has stated that the cross will be placed on private property on a local highway. Where, he says, the cross will actually be seen by an even larger audience.
Per gallup.com, 92 % of Americans believe in God. Therefore, it stands to reason that 8 % do not…and that’s their right, for we are still a free country.
However, what the Foundation, Obama, and the other Progressives attempting to remove Our Creator from day-to-day American Life don’t seem to understand is:
Salvation is an individual experience, not something that happens to a collective.
And America, our sacred land, was built upon individual freedom.
Kingsjester's Blog 
Amen….
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“The War Against Christianity in America Continues!” followed by “the mayor has stated that the cross will be placed on private property on a local highway. Where, he says, the cross will actually be seen by an even larger audience.” So tell me just how this removal from public property is “repressing xians”.
Wallbuilders is not a reliable source for history tales.
a few examples of David Barton’s ‘history’
supposed Thomas Jefferson quote: No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example.
from Monticello.org Spurious Jefferson quotes
Oh, bloody hell – I really wish we had a “preview” function for our comments.
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So again, you complain about Christians losing special government favoritism, and whine about Christians being treated like everyone else. And, of course, it’s all the fault of those nasty atheists…
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Why are you guys so afraid of The Cross?
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For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.–1 Corinthians 1:18
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I wonder how many CROSSES are going to crop up in Whiteville, Tenn. to protest these carpetbaggers?
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“While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.”
–The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.
John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence
“Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God … What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be.”
–Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.
“The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
–Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.
“The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever.”
–Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.
Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event.”
–Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.
“I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.”
–The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence
“Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. … Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us.”
–History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.
Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution
“Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.
That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;
But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure.”
–Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790
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Have you ever known someone who is a die-hard Christian? You know, the ones who insist on praying over every morsel of food they eat, who insist on talking about Jesus as though he were a rock star, the ones who like to look down their thin little noses at you for having a life? Growing up in the deep South of the U.S.A. I have had lifelong opportunities to know such people and as a psychologist, I’ve recently come to a certain realization. But let me give you a “For Instance:”
Say a perfect stranger came up to you in a public setting. This person acted as though they knew you, despite having just met you for the first time. They strike up a conversation and somewhere in the middle they ask you if you have accepted the Easter Bunny as your God. With a perfectly straight face, they then proceed to tell you how the Earth started out as quiche baked in a giant oven for a week and the moon is just a hunk of cheese that fell off when they took it out to cool. Then after the quiche was cooled, the Easter Bunny came down, grabbed a couple of handfulls of the baked goodness, breathed life into it, and that’s where humankind originated. Now, they go on to tell you story after story, and one story about how the Easter Bunny one day was hunted down and shot by the other inhabitants of the quiche, and they didn’t just shoot him, they nailed him to a wall and tormented him for days on end before finally putting him out of his misery. And the Easter Bunny died so that no one would ever have to go hungry for quiche ever again. And that’s why you should accept the Easter Bunny as your personal Lord and Savior. Not only that, but if you don’t, when you die you’ll have to move to a planet where there IS NO QUICHE and you have to do without it’s savory goodness for all eternity.
It would take you all of how many seconds to walk away from this lunatic? Or maybe you’re like me, and you stick around to see just how crazy they are…
Why is it that when we change the names and some of the smaller details it’s easy to see how crazy it is? Yet there are millions of people who are otherwise reasonable and intelligent who fall for a different version of the Easter Bunny story and they just eat it up like it was quiche.
In a very literal, clinical context, to be a faithful Christian is to suffer from a Delusional Psychosis. They believe things that cannot be proven, things that any reasonably intelligent person would see through immediately in the right light, and they don’t know they’re delusional. In a very real sense, there is no way to differentiate between Christianity and other forms of Psychosis, but because we have gotten used to overlooking the “religious” we no longer see them as mentally ill.
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As a lifelong Southern Christian, who has sung in churches and led services for 30 years, I have two questions for you, “Dr.” Martin. Are these fervent believers a menace to society, in any way? And why are you obsessed over them?
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Are they a “menae”? Greek Goddesses to society? Your question does not make sense?
“We all ought to understand we’re on our own. Believing in Santa Claus doesn’t do kids any harm for a few years but it isn’t smart for them to continue waiting all their lives for him to come down the chimney with something wonderful. Santa Claus and God are cousins.
Christians talk as though goodness was their idea but good behavior doesn’t have any religious origin. Our prisons are filled with the devout.
I’d be more willing to accept religion, even if I didn’t believe it, if I thought it made people nicer to each other but I don’t think it does.”
— Andy Rooney, Sincerely, Andy Rooney, 1999.
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Pardon the typo. However, you knew that I meant menace. Per gallup.com, 92 % of Americans believe in God. 75 % proclaim their Christianity. If you want to quote people, I can play that, too. For instance, Ralph Waldo Emerson said, “All I have seen teaches me to trust The Creator for all I have not seen.” Tell me, “Dr.”, psychologically speaking, why do you fear the cross?
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How could you possibly know that I knew what you meant? Did god tell you that? Or was it some other supernatural source?
Where do you get your numbers? gallup.com? Here is a link to a gallup poll. Religion is in decline. More people are speaking out and refusing to cowtow to religious fanatics.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/128276/Increasing-Number-No-Religious-Identity.aspx
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http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Americans-Continue-Believe-God.aspx
And if you couldn’t comprehend that I meant menace, then UT educated you beyond your intelligence.
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Kinda like vampires, some recoil from the sight of a cross…
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The Cross, the Star of David, the Star and Crescent of Islam all belong in the same place. In their respective places of worship. Public buildings are not the place for religious symbols.
This town will loose this battle because what they are doing is illegal. Just because no one has called them out for it before is irrelevant. The mayor caved in so easily because his lawyers pointed out to him that he will loose if he goes to court.
Mayor Bellar said
“We don’t have people of that belief here and if we do they’re not going to raise that kind of ruckus for the rest of the town.”
That sounds to me like intimidation. Those people would be thrown out of town if they dared to speak up.
BTW, I have also spent many years in Southern Baptist churches in Memphis. Then I went to UT and got an education and put the nonsense behind me.
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Ahhh…so you’re a proud eightpercenter, eh? You’ve proved Chesterton right.
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As gallup points out, it’s all in how you ask the question.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1690/religion.aspx
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. it is simply too painful to acknowledge — even to ourselves — that we’ve been so credulous. (So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new bamboozles rise.)”
— Carl Sagan, “The Fine Art of Baloney Detection,” Parade, February 1, 1987
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Ronald Reagan
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You jumped all over KJ for accidentally misspelling “menace” yet you apparently do not know the difference between “loose” and “lose”. I’d suggest you consult a dictionary.
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So back to the original issue. People disagree on their religious beliefs. In the US there are people of many religious beliefs and people of no religious belief.
Why should christians be allowed to put their religious symbols on public structures which were paid for by everyone? Wouldn’t it be more respectful of everyone’s beliefs to keep public structures religion neutral? After all this is not a christian country.
BTW Ronald Reagan also believed in Astrology.
The problem with believing in the supernatural is where does it stop? If you can believe in a god with no physical evidence of his existence then why not believe in ghosts or demons too? How do you pick which supernatural being to believe in? For most this is determined by where you are born. Our mythology is determined by our family and place of birth not by facts and evidence. So sad.
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From wallbuilders.com:
Contemporary post-modern critics (including President Obama) who assert that America is not a Christian nation always refrain from offering any definition of what the term “Christian nation” means. So what is an accurate definition of that term as demonstrated by the American experience?
Contrary to what critics imply, a Christian nation is not one in which all citizens are Christians, or the laws require everyone to adhere to Christian theology, or all leaders are Christians, or any other such superficial measurement. As Supreme Court Justice David Brewer (1837-1910) explained:
[I]n what sense can [America] be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or that the people are in any manner compelled to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” Neither is it Christian in the sense that all its citizens are either in fact or name Christians. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within our borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all. Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is a condition of holding office or otherwise engaging in public service, or essential to recognition either politically or socially. In fact, the government as a legal organization is independent of all religions. Nevertheless, we constantly speak of this republic as a Christian nation – in fact, as the leading Christian nation of the world. 8
So, if being a Christian nation is not based on any of the above criterion, then what makes America a Christian nation? According to Justice Brewer, America was “of all the nations in the world . . . most justly called a Christian nation” because Christianity “has so largely shaped and molded it.” 9
Constitutional law professor Edward Mansfield (1801-1880) similarly acknowledged:
In every country, the morals of a people – whatever they may be – take their form and spirit from their religion. For example, the marriage of brothers and sisters was permitted among the Egyptians because such had been the precedent set by their gods, Isis and Osiris. So, too, the classic nations celebrated the drunken rites of Bacchus. Thus, too, the Turk has become lazy and inert because dependent upon Fate, as taught by the Koran. And when in recent times there arose a nation [i.e., France] whose philosophers [e.g. Voltaire, Rousseau, Diderot, Helvetius, etc.] discovered there was no God and no religion, the nation was thrown into that dismal case in which there was no law and no morals. . . . In the United States, Christianity is the original, spontaneous, and national religion. 10
Founding Father and U. S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall agreed:
[W]ith us, Christianity and religion are identified. It would be strange, indeed, if with such a people our institutions did not presuppose Christianity and did not often refer to it and exhibit relations with it. 11
Christianity is the religion that shaped America and made her what she is today. In fact, historically speaking, it can be irrefutably demonstrated that Biblical Christianity in America produced many of the cherished traditions still enjoyed today, including:
A republican rather than a theocratic form of government;
The institutional separation of church and state (as opposed to today’s enforced institutional secularization of church and state);
Protection for religious toleration and the rights of conscience;
A distinction between theology and behavior, thus allowing the incorporation into public policy of religious principles that promote good behavior but which do not enforce theological tenets (examples of this would include religious teachings such as the Good Samaritan, The Golden Rule, the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, etc., all of which promote positive civil behavior but do not impose ecclesiastical rites); and
A free-market approach to religion, thus ensuring religious diversity.
Consequently, a Christian nation as demonstrated by the American experience is a nation founded upon Christian and Biblical principles, whose values, society, and institutions have largely been shaped by those principles. This definition was reaffirmed by American legal scholars and historians for generations 12 but is widely ignored by today’s revisionists.
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In the words of the founding fathers themselves. The first treaty ever negotiated by the United States of America. Negotiated by George Washington, passed UNANIMOUSLY by the Senate, signed into law by John Adams and published in New York and Philadelphia papers without controversy.
The Treaty of Tripoli 1797.
“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
The US is a very different place today than
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Should finish…
The US is a very different place today than in its early days.
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George Washington’s adopted daughter, having spent twenty years of her life in his presence, declared that one might as well question Washington’s patriotism as question his Christianity. Certainly, no one questions his patriotism; so is it not rather ridiculous to question his Christianity? George Washington was a devout Episcopalian; and although as an Episcopalian he would not be classified as an outspoken and extrovert “evangelical” Founder as were Founding Fathers like Benjamin Rush, Roger Sherman, and Thomas McKean, nevertheless, being an Episcopalian makes George Washington no less of a Christian.
George Washington Praying. Yet for the current revisionists who have made it their goal to assert that America was founded as a secular nation by secular individuals and that the only hope for America’s longevity rests in her continued secularism, George Washington’s faith must be sacrificed on the altar of their secularist agenda.
QUOTE
After researching Washington’s life, Dr. Tim LaHaye wrote: “Our first President was a godly man of humble character and sterling commitment to God. William White reports of his sincere piety in ‘Washington Writings’:
‘It seems proper to subjoin to this letter what was told to me by Mr. Robert Lewis, at Fredricksburg, in the year 1827. Being a nephew of Washington, and his private secretary during the first part of his presidency, Mr. Lewis lived with him on terms of intimacy, and had the best opportunity for observing his habits. Mr. Lewis said that he had accidentally witnessed his private devotions in his library both morning and evening; that on those occasions he had seen him in a kneeling posture with a Bible open before him, and that he believed such to have been his daily practice.’” [2]
At the end of the Revolutionary War, when the announcement of official peace arrived in America, George Washington issued his final sentiments. In his circular letter to the States on June 8, 1783, even though Washington gratefully acknowledged that we had won the war, he urged them to recall something of much greater importance and to remember…
…the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation. [3]
From George Washington’s first official order through his last, he displayed a Christian emphasis.
QUOTE
While encamped on the banks of a river, Washington was approached by Delaware Indian chiefs who desired that their youth be trained in American schools. In Washington’s response, he first told them that “Congress… will look on them as on their own children.” [4] That is, we would train their children as if they were our own. He then commended the chiefs for their decision:
You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention. [4]
According to George Washington, what students would learn in American schools “above all” was “the religion of Jesus Christ.”
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Yep, a’feared…Keep it locked away, behind closed doors. Gotta remove all symbols of religion from the outsides of churches et al, lest “we get some on us”. Next, no religion symbol jewelry can be worn in such a way that it can be seen by others. Catholics can’t “cross” themselves in public. No more “God bless you” when someone sneezes…
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If chrisianity is so important to the founding of this country then why is it not mentioned a single time in the Constitution of the United States? Not a single mention of Jesus anywhere.
The foundation of our legal system, the Constitution, does not attribute any of it’s law to the christian religion. Or any religion for that matter.
We do not live in The Christian Republic of the United States.
The “Golden Plates” were discovered in New York in 1823 and are the basis of the Mormon religion. Scientology was founded in 1953 in New Jersey. If you are going to pick a religion why not go with an American religion instead of a middle eastern religion like christianity.
When there is no evidence to support any supernatural beings then you are free to choose to believe in any one you like.
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Our Creator.
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Not sure what this means. I searched the u.s. constitution for the words “our creator” and did not find it anywhere.
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Our Creator is in the Declaration of Independence, of course, another one of our Founding Documents.
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The Declaration has no influence on our laws.
“creator” and “nature’s god” appear in the Declaration. Jesus or Christ do not.
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There were 95 Senators and Representatives in the First Federal Congress. If one combines the total number of signatures on the Declaration, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution with the non-signing Constitutional Convention delegates, and then adds to that sum the number of congressmen in the First Federal Congress, one obtains a total of 238 “slots” or “positions” in these groups which one can classify as “Founding Fathers” of the United States. Because 40 individuals had multiple roles (they signed multiple documents and/or also served in the First Federal Congress), there are 204 unique individuals in this group of “Founding Fathers.” These are the people who did one or more of the following:
– signed the Declaration of Independence
– signed the Articles of Confederation
– attended the Constitutional Convention of 1787
– signed the Constitution of the United States of America
– served as Senators in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791)
– served as U.S. Representatives in the First Federal Congress
The religious affiliations of these individuals are summarized below. Obviously this is a very restrictive set of names, and does not include everyone who could be considered an “American Founding Father.” But most of the major figures that people generally think of in this context are included using these criteria, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, John Hancock, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and more.
Religious Affiliation of U.S. Founding Fathers # of Founding Fathers % of Founding Fathers
Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
TOTAL 204
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This is irrelevent. They might have been influenced by their religious upbringing, I am sure that I was influenced by my religious upbringing.
But in their wisdom they decided to leave out all mention of religion except to restrain its influence on our government.
1) No religious test to hold office. Article 6.
2) No state religion and no interference or endorsement by government. First Ammendment.
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I think what the town chooses to put on public property is the town’s business, and should be between the town’s elected officials and the taxpayers. Elected officials who do things the taxpayers are against can be voted out and replaced.
I am an atheist myself, but I am not the least bit bothered by the sight of a cross on public property or anywhere else. I would not want religion shoved down my throat, but I’m that way about having anything shoved down my throat. By the same token this militant atheist organization should not be trying to shove their lack of religion down anybody’s throat. As Hank Williams Jr. said in his song Coalition To Ban Coalitions, “Hey, you do your thing and we’ll do our thing too.”
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Martin, Jefferson explained the so called “separation of church and state” a phrase that had never been uttered by the way until Jefferson put it in a letter in 1802, as a restriction on the federal government. The Warren court interpreted it (wrongly I might add) as a restriction on the people. And there is no restriction in there that applies to localities or states unless it is written into their own constitutions.
Therefore the local courthouse is free to have the Ten Commandments posted and should be able to freely display a nativity scene on the lawn without interference from douchebags such as yourself.
The very fact that the government has ruled to regulate religious practices, indicates that the government has crossed that “Wall of Separation.” And that is what the first amendment was written to prevent.
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@bc
I would agree with you that it would be up to the town if the town were a private entity. i.e. they are not taking tax dollars from the county, state or federal government. Unfortunately they do. And the U.S. Constitution and the Tennessee Constitution both have language which prohibits religious favoritism. The majority is not allowed to impose their religion on others. Just move the cross to private property and the problem goes away.
@johnny
Yes, we all know about the letter to the Danburry Baptists where the phrase “wall of separation” was coined. I believe that you are wrong about courthouses being free to display the ten commandments. The Supreme Court allowed th Ten Commandment display at the Texas Capital but required the display at two courthouses in Kentucky to be removed. One of the latest rulings is here.
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20110718/ARTICLES/110719637
from a ruling in Florida in July.
I always find it interesting that pious believers such as johnny are the first to start calling others names. “douchebags”? How very christ-like of you.
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I don’t think the root of the problem does go away. I think militant atheists are bothered by any display of religious symbols and would rather not be confronted by them anywhere. The “separation of church and state” just gives them a tool they can use to try to get some of them removed. The problem stems from their own hatred and intolerance of religion.
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Show me one instance where militant atheists have tried to have religious symbols removed from private property.
It is the militant christians who are trying to force their religion into our government.
I don’t hate religion. I just don’t believe in the supernatural. No ghosts, no spirits, no demons and no gods. The bible is just a book written by man and god was invented by man. There is no evidence to support their existence.
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Atheists Sue to Have Cross Removed From World Trade Center Museum
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A lawsuit filed by the American Atheists in U.S. District Court on Thursday seeks to remove steel crosses that dot roadways throughout Utah and memorialize Utah Highway Patrol troopers who have died in the line of duty.
The suit has drawn harsh reaction from family members of the fallen troopers and promises to be the source of an emotional battle.
The crosses, which stand about 12 feet high and bear the trooper’s name and the UHP insignia, were erected starting in 1998 and serve as a memorial for 14 troopers who have died since 1931. About
nine of the crosses are on public land
and all of them are placed near the spot where the troopers lost their lives.
Plaintiffs Stephen Clark, Michael Rivers and Richard Andrews in conjunction with the American Atheists Inc. also seek to have the UHP symbol removed from the crosses.
“The presence of the UHP logo on a poignant religious symbol is an unconstitutional violation of the United States Constitution. It is government endorsement of religion,” said Rivers, Utah director for American Atheists.
5 of those crosses are on private property.
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You think that the 9/11 memorial and museum is private property?
http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20110912/REAL_ESTATE/110919991
This supports my statement that militant christians are trying to force their religion into government memorials.
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In the Utah Highway Patrol crosses case, only the crosses on public land are affected. The court case constantly refers to the issue of religious symbols on public land.
“The U.S. Supreme Court today is expected to make a decision on whether it will hear the contentious case involving the appropriateness of placing 12-foot-high crosses on public property in Utah to memorialize state troopers killed in the line of duty is expected in the coming days.”
Where have the courts forced crosses to be removed from private land?
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I never claimed to be a pious believer did I? Now you are trying to classify me without any real information. Typical. I on the other hand can tell you are a douchebag based on your posts here.
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I beg your pardon. You are right, from your posts I can only assume that you are under-educated and ill-informed. I hope that this discussion has educated you a little.
“Insults are the last resort of insecure people with a crumbling position trying to appear confident.”
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@bc
As a further comment on your post. Your idea of this being between the town and it’s citizens and that elections will take care of it misses the point. There are certain protections in our constitution which are there to protect minorities. The majority does not rule in the U.S. They are limited by the constitution. Things such as discrimination based on sex, race or religion are protected from majority rule.
Also, this militant atheist organization, ffrf, does not just go into a town and start filing lawsuits. They wait for a local resident to contact them. Someone in Whiteville is unhappy with the cross. They might be the minority but it is the town that is breaking the law and ffrf is just helping them defend their rights.
The reason that this individual does not come out and openly fight this should be obvious from the many discussions you see on the internet. Their house would probably be burned down by the good christians in town.
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The real problem in these cases is that christians think that their particular mythology is priviledged. Because they are the majority they think that the government should allow their symbols to be placed in prominent places on public property.
In the past they got away with it through intimidation. Like the guy interviewed by wreg said.
“I’d tell this one person who’s got a problem with it to go ahead and pack and move, and if anybody else has a problem with the cross they need to pack and move also,” said Larry Cook.
Atheists and people of other faiths are standing up for their rights and christians don’t like it.
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The first amendment reads.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The first word, congress, this amendment was meant to restrict the federal government only from establishing a religion. No other entity. If they had meant for this rule to apply to all states and localities they would have said in in that way. For instance, look at the fourth amendment which was meant to apply to every state and every citizen in them.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
The intent is clear.
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@johnny
You really are under-educated aren’t you? Have you ever heard of the fourteenth amendment to the U.S. Constitution?
“AMENDMENT XIV
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
This amendment extended the protections of the Bill of Rights to all citizens and prohibited states from passing laws which abridge those rights.
Do you think that freedom of speech and freedom of the press only apply to congress too?
“Originally, the First Amendment applied only to laws enacted by the Congress. However, starting with Gitlow v. New York, 268 U.S. 652 (1925), the Supreme Court has held that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment applies the First Amendment to each state, including any local government.”
You need to get your information from some place other than the pulpit.
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Sorry but I fail to see the first amendment as declaring a right not to see a religious symbol on public property. That was not the intent of it.
Call me under-educated if you must to make yourself feel better but it is clear that the meaning and intent of it was to prevent congress from establishing a “Church of England” here in the states. I know I will never convince you however and shall move on and thank you for a hearty debate.
P.S. I do apologize for the douchebag thing.
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One of the purposes of the first amendment is to prevent the government from “endorsing” a religion. Having a cross on government property gives the impression that the government endorses christianity. The courts have found this to be illegal.
The town of Whiteville broke the law. They got away with it for years but have now been reported. They are the ones who should be ashamed not the atheists.
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Your readers must be very delicate if they are so offended when a little bit of the real world becomes visible in their hiding places. A shame that you all seem to require mutual reinforcement and are unable to answer a few questions or to admit when you are wrong.
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Your readership must be awfully poor for you to try to come over and use my blog to try to troll for readers. What part of the fact that only 8% of Americans are atheists don’t you understand?
The only sensitivity around here belongs to you and Martin. Average Americans are tired of the Tyranny of the Minority, and we’re not going to put up with it anymore.
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The cross has been removed. The law has prevailed. Put up as many crosses on private property as you like just keep your bronze age mythology out of our government.
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No can do. In God we trust.. Don’t be so bitter, 8 percenter.
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We are going to work on the “In God We Trust” and “Under God” stuff next. Just wait. They were only added in the mid 1950’s as a knee jerk reaction to Communism. We will go back to “E Pluribus Unum”, the motto that I was born with.
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The 92% of Americans who believe in God are really, really scared. Why are you so bitter?
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I’m not bitter at all. It is just embarrassing to live in a country where so many people believe in Santa Claus’ cousin god. Who still believe that the universe was created in 6 days. People that believe that their holy book was inspired by god even though it only contains knowledge known to bronze age man.
The bible is so enlightened that it’s believers thought that the earth was flat and the center of the universe. Many still do. The catholic church condemed Galileo in 1616 for suggesting that the earth orbited the sun because the bible stated that the earth is fixed and doesn’t move.
Religion poisons everything. Notice that I did not say christianity. Belief in the supernatural poisons everything. Christianity is just as violent a religion as Islam.
Support science not superstition.
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Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
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